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dremoto
08-30-2008, 06:12 PM
This post was originally for my map of New England and mysterious places in the region. Due to the concern a lot of members have shared with me I have now deleted the link and made the map "Unlisted". If anyone is looking for any bit of advice around here in New England, contact me personally and ill be sure to help you out. The address is motodrola@aol.com. Cheers!

Andre


(http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=104943510239305893033.000453a720ec0a96e0371&ll=41.877486,-72.000618&spn=0.061223,0.11055&z=13)

Tsarevna
08-31-2008, 10:50 AM
Great Job! That is really cool.

Bear in mind, some people are not going to like your work, as keeping the places' locations secret was once an unwritten rule. (This rule was meant to keep desecraters and thieves away.)

However, these days of GPS maps, internet blogs and available on-demand satellite images means that nothing can be hidden anymore.

So, that rule is out the window.

The new attitude is: let others know about special places so these special places can be protected. If developers, or the federal gov. wants to tear down a place, having hundreds of angry people protesting and writing letters will be many ghost town's only chance at survival.

The wrecking ball is more of a threat than vandalism these days.

Joel
08-31-2008, 11:57 AM
I don't know about that. There is going to be a herd of morons descending on those places now. The poor folks that live in those areas are going to think that the gates of stupid were just opened.

Just imagine living half a block away from any of those areas.

BTW: I have spent six years of my life in Germany, four of them in an Allied Occupied City as an USAF Brat. Not all German soldiers in the Wehrmacht were Nazis. You may want to do a tad of research before you go insulting.

dremoto
08-31-2008, 06:35 PM
For the interest of science and history I give the locations to these places. I have always totally respected all places I go to and even pick up trash whenever i see it at a location. I only hope others are as responsible as me. Also I believe that most registered users of this forum are responsible enough to see the signifigance of these sites and not disturb them. Then again, Dudleytown, CT.........we wont go there. Please use my map responsibly. Only after long consideration have I made it public. Thank you.

Andre

Tsarevna
09-01-2008, 04:08 AM
BTW: I have spent six years of my life in Germany, four of them in an Allied Occupied City as an USAF Brat. Not all German soldiers in the Wehrmacht were Nazis. You may want to do a tad of research before you go insulting.


What???:confused:

.................


For the interest of science and history I give the locations to these places. I have always totally respected all places I go to and even pick up trash whenever i see it at a location. I only hope others are as responsible as me. Also I believe that most registered users of this forum are responsible enough to see the signifigance of these sites and not disturb them. Then again, Dudleytown, CT.........we wont go there. Please use my map responsibly. Only after long consideration have I made it public. Thank you.

Andre

Once you make a google map public, if anyone else is searching the general area...they can press a button that bring up a list of maps that other people made, such as your map.

So, once it's public, everybody in the entire world can see it.

However, I wouldn't remove it or make it private, and here's my case and point:

The ghost town of Caribou (sometimes spelled Cariboo) California, was wrecked by the state of California Forest Service, sometime in the 1980s or early 1990's. I had driven past it with my family, on the main highway, and had never had a clue it existed. We drove past it's road turn-off at least 10 times per year on our way to our cabin.

Nobody knew the ghost town was going to be torn down because of the general ignorance about it, and nobody was there to stop it, file legal actions, protest it, or try to get it placed on the National Register of Historic Places when the wrecking ball threat came.
Now, it's a place-name on a map with weeds and a foundation or two. :(

GT.com gives the names and states of ghost towns. Anybody who uses GT.com can easily "google search" the name and come up with old maps showing where it was, and go vandalize and loot it.

If people want to argue that maps and directions should never be given out publicly, well, they should be against gt.com existing also, or else be hypocrites.

Joel
09-01-2008, 05:04 AM
What???:confused:
He makes reference to a EX-Nazi POW Camp on his map. The POW Camps in WWII did have actual names. Nor were all inmates of said Camp actual nazis. Sorry, kind of a sore point with me.

I think it's one thing to mention a historic of forgotten place, but another to give exact directions. I've come across quite a few destroyed and opened graveyards. Courtland and Alto have been spray painted by taggers.

As long as so many refuse to show respect for obscure sites, I'd rather that they do their own research and not have a ready map. Nothing is wrong with a vague or general location.

You're right about a lot of places being destroyed by the wrecking ball. I can list quite a few of them myself. But to turn the locations of other sites that haven't been wrecked to thrill seekers is a scary thought too.

I guess that there is no easy answer in this age of total information. Speaking for myself, I'd rather not think that I have helped lead the mindless to a historic site so that they can destroy, loot, collect or otherwise tamper, defile or destroy history.

dremoto
09-01-2008, 11:01 AM
I try to take into account that most "vandal kids" have high speed internet and google earth and find basically anything they want. I weighed these factors very carefully as well as the point that my map hopes to inform and interest people of the history in their region. To make people aware before its too late. and these sites are mindlessly lumbered and demolished. This was particularly the case in my most recent investigation of the site of the Ram Tail Mill in Rhode Island. I found the site to be intact but logging and clearing is endangering the site right up to its front door well.

For those of you that want to check out the photos from my trips you can at my panoramio site.

http://www.panoramio.com/user/1726532

Joel
09-01-2008, 05:49 PM
Well, I wish those sites luck. There was a book published here in the '60's that gave fairly detailed instructions for locating ghost towns and historic sites.
I've heard from the old timers that the result wasn't pretty and that some legal action had the book yanked from sales fairly quickly.
I understand about corporate destruction. I also understand the mindless. We're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one.

Vulture
09-01-2008, 06:37 PM
Here in southern AZ the Tucson paper ran a human interest article on a nearby ghost town, Copper Creek, I think in the early 90's. It included directions & a map. It was in a pretty area & much remained of the town at the time. Within a few years it was destroyed, substantial buildings torn down to the foundations & even the foundations ruined by 4x4'ers trying out their winches.

The only buildings with walls today are the old store & the mine owners (Sibley) house which have stone walls. Only the walls remain as the woodwork was all consumed when the buildings were burned by drunken stoned a$$holes.

The town had remained fairly undisturbed for many years untill the article in the paper.

If you make it known, they will come, no matter how good your intentions are.

Our history is disapearing too fast as it is, don't make it any easier for the numbnuts to find a new place to reak havoc on...

<

dremoto
09-01-2008, 07:12 PM
Well this is the kind of feedback I needed. BTW the poll is tied 1-1 lol. It is hard for me because I myself have feelings for both arguments. I will leave it to the poll if it stays up or not. My only intention was for the good of this forum. As I am a recently new user to this forum but am an experienced explorer I wanted to contribute my findings based on my tireless research done. Maybe this knowledge is best to hold to ones self. Cheers to all comments regarding.

dremoto
09-01-2008, 07:20 PM
I would also like to point out the fact in this very forum the is a sub-forum "Directions And Locations Of Ghost Towns". I am not the best information source compared to the power of many, I cannot control that. Just pondering it before bed.:confused:

Vulture
09-01-2008, 07:36 PM
I think most folks on this forum don't mind exerting some effort to get to the hard to find places. The chase is part of the fun.

Most of the locations on the ghost towns listed here still require some additional research. Of course some are right on the main road. But Alto which Joel mentions as having been desicrated by taggers requires some effort & a high clearence vehicle to get to. The presence of the McMansions nearby & the consequint road improvements have made access easier lately. We can't help that.

We are mostily what I would call "amateur historians", or just enthusiasts.

If directions are not specific we will work to figure it out & respect it when we do.

<

Joel
09-01-2008, 07:42 PM
For what it's worth, I notice that sites that can not be accessed by vehicle and the only way in is foot are generally left alone by vandals.

This doesn't always hold true with the collectors though. I'm still stunned that some ghoul dug up the cemetery at Charleston to sell at his garage sale.

But for what it's worth, the places by roadsides are prime targets for both groups. The sites I find far from the road generally tend to have quite a few relics still.

dremoto
09-01-2008, 07:53 PM
This is a prime connection to people that are devoted enough to see the site due to historical interest. In this case the woods filters out the people who come through. Who may pass?

Vulture
09-01-2008, 08:03 PM
For what it's worth, I notice that sites that can not be accessed by vehicle and the only way in is foot are generally left alone by vandals.

This doesn't always hold true with the collectors though. I'm still stunned that some ghoul dug up the cemetery at Charleston to sell at his garage sale.

But for what it's worth, the places by roadsides are prime targets for both groups. The sites I find far from the road generally tend to have quite a few relics still.

Right, the graveyard desecration at Charleston happened years ago before it was protected as BLM land. There was vehicle access then. According to Ben Traywick the perps were caught & returned the headstones & charged. But it happened agan & now the relics are gone for keeps.

<

Joel
09-01-2008, 08:29 PM
Here's some food for thought. The USGS is removing quite a few historic sites, ruins and graveyards from topo maps. Using older maps, I can still find these places. Could the USGS actually be trying to protect them?

bad bob
09-01-2008, 09:19 PM
Well this is the kind of feedback I needed. BTW the poll is tied 1-1 lol. It is hard for me because I myself have feelings for both arguments. I will leave it to the poll if it stays up or not. My only intention was for the good of this forum. As I am a recently new user to this forum but am an experienced explorer I wanted to contribute my findings based on my tireless research done. Maybe this knowledge is best to hold to ones self. Cheers to all comments regarding.





Gotta agree on keepin the maps as vague as you can.

Contributions from you or anyone else are welcomed and appreciated. But the destruction rate currently taking place for these historic sites is quite alarming.

The wrecking ball can often be disputed in city hall or some other venue. (Not that it does much good most of the time), But there is no control of ruthless vandals. And each generation seems to be getting worse than the previous. :(

dremoto
09-02-2008, 05:29 AM
I find no point in making a map that is intentionally vague. It goes against the very foundation of making a map, to be as accurate as possible. If I need to make it vague, it wont be posted anymore. Also I wanted to give you guys the poll update 1 vote to stay up, 4 to take it down. Not looking good for the map :D

GaryB
09-02-2008, 11:50 AM
Here's some food for thought. The USGS is removing quite a few historic sites, ruins and graveyards from topo maps. Using older maps, I can still find these places. Could the USGS actually be trying to protect them?


Actually, they have a rule of thumb or something like that to where they remove older sites as they lose public interest from future maps. I forget the time frame they use, but it's something like 20 years. It's to keep maps legible without them being completely covered with too much info.

So they deem what is important enough to include and go from there. It's not uncommon to find places on maps 10 years old that have become abandoned or erased.

Case in point: my 1932 Nevada State Highway map has a lot of places that are now ghost towns, and not on the 2008 State Highway map.

dremoto
09-02-2008, 12:06 PM
This is actually the case where I am living currently. At one time my section of Douglas, MA was Tasseltop, a village of Douglas. Now almost nothing remains of Tasseltop and it is listed on some of the older maps Ive encountered but not on newer ones.

On another subject it seems that Google Maps is keeping all of that data on their maps as I see every old or forgotten village still listed. At least 7 around me that are non-recognizable communities. With that in mind, Google maps might be a good way to go when trying to pin down a forgotten place.

campp
09-02-2008, 02:14 PM
A bit off the subject, but I am sworn to secrecy on a certain desert oasis that is not marked on any map. It requires strenous hiking to reach, and those who are taken there are sworn to secrecy. It's been this way for 20 years that I've been going in there. I think those who actually make it there feel they need to protect it from the ding-dongs. I know I won't tell anyone where it is. :)

bad bob
09-02-2008, 05:16 PM
I find no point in making a map that is intentionally vague. It goes against the very foundation of making a map, to be as accurate as possible. If I need to make it vague, it wont be posted anymore. Also I wanted to give you guys the poll update 1 vote to stay up, 4 to take it down. Not looking good for the map :D




True. I think vague was the wrong word. But can't your maps be general locations without the final details?

I see another poster (snuf films) is providing detailed directions too. It's a free country, just have to hope the desecrators are too busy trying to find someone to buy their beer. :(

bad bob
09-02-2008, 05:18 PM
A bit off the subject, but I am sworn to secrecy on a certain desert oasis that is not marked on any map. It requires strenous hiking to reach, and those who are taken there are sworn to secrecy. It's been this way for 20 years that I've been going in there. I think those who actually make it there feel they need to protect it from the ding-dongs. I know I won't tell anyone where it is. :)





Ve haf vays of making you talk!:D

dremoto
09-02-2008, 06:01 PM
I have made the decision now as I see that popular opinion is not changing to bring the map to a state of secrecy once again. Thank you everyone who voived their opinions. Im still here to help people in need of some direction in their life :D

Joel
09-02-2008, 06:20 PM
I'll bet he's going to 31.432000, -109.899000! :D

Sasco has become a paint-baller's heaven. Haven't been up there is a few years, but the only structures that I can imagine being left still standing there are the gigantic concrete slabs. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Gary, USGS and their methods have always had me scratching my head. Take a quad like Ruby that is National Forest and has not had ant real construction since the '30's(?) and items are still leaving the quad everytime that a new one comes out. The darned things are still there, but being left out on the newer maps. It's a mystery to me!

dremoto
09-02-2008, 06:33 PM
He makes reference to a EX-Nazi POW Camp on his map. The POW Camps in WWII did have actual names. Nor were all inmates of said Camp actual nazis. Sorry, kind of a sore point with me.

I think it's one thing to mention a historic of forgotten place, but another to give exact directions. I've come across quite a few destroyed and opened graveyards. Courtland and Alto have been spray painted by taggers.

As long as so many refuse to show respect for obscure sites, I'd rather that they do their own research and not have a ready map. Nothing is wrong with a vague or general location.

You're right about a lot of places being destroyed by the wrecking ball. I can list quite a few of them myself. But to turn the locations of other sites that haven't been wrecked to thrill seekers is a scary thought too.

I guess that there is no easy answer in this age of total information. Speaking for myself, I'd rather not think that I have helped lead the mindless to a historic site so that they can destroy, loot, collect or otherwise tamper, defile or destroy history.

I would also like to add that I have never found out the actual name to the Stark, NH camp. Nor is it published. This was my personal map so I needed a marker just as a reminder to research it. You have no need to attack me on that. Actually I will give you a refewrence point for it.

"In early 1944, the remains of a former Civilian Conservation Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps) Camp in Stark was transformed to hold about 250 German POWs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POW#World_War_II). This was the only WWII POW camp located in New Hampshire. Most of the men in the camp did hard labor in the nearby forests, supplying wood for the nearby paper mills. Some of the prisoners remained in the United States after the war ended and the camp closed in 1946."

And now you know the rest of the story.........

dremoto
09-02-2008, 06:37 PM
Here is a even more detailed description....


"In the spring of 1944 a high fence and four guard towers transformed a former Civilian Conservation Corps Camp on this site into New Hampshire's sole World War II prisoner-of-war camp. About 250 German and Austrian soldiers, most of whom were captured in North Africa, lived in Camp Stark while working in the surrounding forest where they cut pulpwood vital to wartime industry. The camp closed in the spring of 1946 when the prisoners of war were returned to their homeland. Several maintained the new friendships they had formed with local New Hampshire residents."

Werent these German and Austrian soldiers Nazi's? Or just German soldiers.........hmmm......or German and Nazi ;)

Joel
09-02-2008, 07:08 PM
There's a bit of information regarding Camp Stark and Camp Houlton in Maine.

Here's one for Camp Stark http://books.google.com/books?id=n95kC16o7QcC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=camp+stark+pows&source=web&ots=03hMRjYzyy&sig=m1o_7t2zqZvgmgolikmF1HFK22E&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result .

As for the POW mixture, that's for someone to shift through the old rolls. All I can tell you is that not all Germans were Nazis and many died at their hands. History is never as simple as it's made out to be.

dremoto
09-02-2008, 07:17 PM
All Im saying that officially this site was a detainment site for Nazi soldiers of the Axis powers. These were soldiers from North Africa. There was nothing wrong with my map in that regard. Its a ex-Nazi POW camp. We were at war with german nazi soldiers and thats where they were detained. Anyway it was a placemark for myself, like a quick note, ya know?:D

Tsarevna
09-08-2008, 11:10 PM
All Im saying that officially this site was a detainment site for Nazi soldiers of the Axis powers. These were soldiers from North Africa. There was nothing wrong with my map in that regard. Its a ex-Nazi POW camp. We were at war with german nazi soldiers and thats where they were detained. Anyway it was a placemark for myself, like a quick note, ya know?:D

If people didn't want to be known as Nazi's they shouldn't have fought for them. There were things like the underground resistance movement they could have joined instead of the military. What if I joined a group of skinheads beating up a black guy in the street. I get arrested by the cops, and say "oh, I'm not a skinhead, I was just fighting for them."

Would that fly as an excuse?
If fighting for Hitler isn't a shameful thing, then there is no shame in this world.

Joel
09-09-2008, 05:09 PM
There is shame. But putting it in such simplistic terms fails to tell what really happened.
They hijacked an entire nation and took it to ruin. How do you think that they did it?

dremoto
09-10-2008, 04:03 AM
There is shame. But putting it in such simplistic terms fails to tell what really happened.
They hijacked an entire nation and took it to ruin. How do you think that they did it?

By taking the pride of a hurt nation and using it to his advantage. The people of Germany needed new nationalism and thats what he offered. Too bad it was the man with the mustache.:D

GaryB
09-10-2008, 10:15 AM
And using fear tactics. Not that any political party or figure would use fear tactics to get what they wanted today.











:rolleyes:

Tsarevna
09-10-2008, 06:20 PM
And using fear tactics. Not that any political party or figure would use fear tactics to get what they wanted today.











:rolleyes:


Ughf! So true! :( *cries*

xplor'npaul
10-02-2008, 08:53 AM
I think it's ok to put a map up in GT.com. most kid vandals aren't going to say " gee, I think I'll go to a ghosttowns site and find something to destroy". Putting it in a newspaper tho, is going to put the ideal into people's heads that never had the thought before. it's one thing to make a person find out about a place, and another to make them find it on their own, no matter how simple it is. One is just inviting trouble, the other is not. just my 2 centavos. :D

teds280z
10-02-2008, 01:58 PM
I am not sure on this but I lean to no maps and some basic directions to sites as we have on most of our places. I think with basic directions the whoever would have to do some research on there own. I really enjoy doing that as I also learn more about the town. Anyone can type a town name to google or the others and get some directions but, some of those asre not quite accurate. What would I do without my Benchmark Atlas':eek: